Most gays I know supported prop 2. I don't think they'e mad that prop 2 passed. It's more that they feel like the voters cared more about protecting chickens than human beings. That doesn't mean they don't care about the chickens. It's just extra disheartening to know that we've come to a point where we can elect an African American president and pass Prop 2 by a wide margin, but discrimination against gays is still so acceptable.

Many of the same people who voted for Obama and for Prop 2 couldn't make the leap to supporting equality for gay people. That doesn't mean we're not happy that they supported Obama and Prop 2 - it just makes the passing of Prop 8 hurt even more.

Your confusion on Prop 8 makes me wonder if others thought that voting yes on Prop 8 was voting for same-sex marriage.  Actually, Prop 8 says that marriage is only between a man and a woman - in other words, a yes vote is a vote to ban same-sex marriage. 

Prop 8 passed. 

A NO on 8 would have been a vote for keeping the CA constitution as is and allowing all people, including same-sex couples, the legal right to be married.

I voted No on Prop 2, because it's bad public health policy and doesn't control the eggs coming in from different areas outside. It's funny because this is really an issue that would actually affect me-- my husband and I may both have very steady jobs, but we have one kid's college tuition to foot, and four other children's mouths to feed and eggs are expensive enough without the rise  in price. Plus, I feel like we're all going to die of bird flu now.

But I'm not ANGRY it passed. What stuns me, however, is how like, 60% of Californians can vote YES on having freaking chickens be able to spread their freaking wings and be treated all humanely without even thinking about the public health concerns or the economic concerns or the affect on farmers. This is something that will AFFECT ALL OF US  in some way. In a ripple effect sort of way. [Note: I was against Prop 2 for publc health and economic concerns, but I believe that ALL creatures deserve humane treatment. I'm all for reform in that industry)

Anyway. So CALIFORNIA voters decided that sure, we're going to overlook all those public health concerns and economic impact to let chickens have a more humane existence. MEANWHILE, they passed Prop 8. As though my marriage to a man is in ANY way impacted or diminished if two women or two men get married. 

Again, I'm not ANGRY Prop 2 passed. But I'm BAFFLED as to how so many Californias were willing to take on the public health and economic risks for freaking CHICKENS an then decided they would take away two people's right to marry as though ANYONE's marriage has ANY impact on someone else. [Well, unless you now, you're dating a married person or the person you fancy is wed, but those are separate issues)

On the bright side THANK GOD, Prop 4 failed. Prop 4 was MY most emotional issue. I was 14 years old when I got pregnant, and 15 when my daughter was born. Because of this, I was kicked out of my parents' home, right after they kicked my ass to high heaven and I went into foster care. I was relieved that at least on THIS issue, Californians could see the clear light of day-- not every child enjoys a good relationship with their parent. Hell, if my 18 year old daughter had gotten pregnant when she was a minor or if my 15 year old son gets a girl pregnant, I WOULD NOT want to know about it. Seriously. Well, okay, I would. Because I'm their mother. But I respect that they would thnk I'd be pissed (would YOU want to be a 33 year old grandmother?!) and would want to keep it from me because they're afraid I'd kick their butts (I wouldn't)

This whole election has been so confusing to me, because here we are, we elected this wonderful president who happens to be black, which means on some level, we, as a people, are moving beyond our ignorant past. Six months ago, I said to my daughter and my husband, "this country is not ready for a black president" and I was WRONG. Here in California, we overwhelmingly voted Obama as president, voted overwhelmingly for the humane treatment of freaking chickens, voted narrowly to protect children and abortion but voted for a BAN on gay marriage? What the hell? I seriously can not wrap my brain around it. At all. And I think it's all this sort of insanity that makes people crazy.

And honestly? It's just NOT okay that we can recognize the value of a chicken's life and the quality of its life before it ends up on my dinner table via El Pollo Loco, ubt ont recognize a FUNDAMENTRAL RIGHT to happiness. Hell, I'm already married and I plan on staying married. I mean, granted, I had kids with my husband before we actually got married, but for all intents and purpose, I have the sort of traditional family that the proponents of Prop 8 tout-- I've been married for years, my five children have the same father, my oldest is in college, we go to church on Sundays, etc etc etc. But I'm FURIOUS about Prop 8 because marriage is a fundamental right and Californians took that away from an entire group of people whilst simultaneously recognizing that chickens shouldn't suffer. 

I can see where you're coming from and frankly, I agree.  It's unfortunate that these protests and this organization is coming AFTER Prop 8 has passed.  But it's also true that the negative can bring people together much more quickly than the positive.

The biggest problem I've seen in the gay rights movement is that as it's aged, the organization and unity has faded.  The Civil Rights movement was so effective because it had strong leadership and an (almost) united front.  The gay rights movement seems to have a much less defined leadership and no central organization for supporters to well..support.

I may be wrong.  After all, this is just my opinion.  But it's definitely what I've seen from the movement.

-Mattie

http://www.matsie.net

These crowds were on phone banks, standing on street corners with signs, and donating to the ad campaigns to defeat Prop 8. Many of us were hopeful it wouldn't pass. Those No on 8 signs you see in the protests did come from before the election. No, we weren't taking over streets and protesting in anger becuase we had nothing to be angry about before it passed. And by the way, these protests have been mostly peaceful. The only violence I have seen was when a Prop 8 supporter got out of his truck and punched a protester.

Pre-Election Rally 

I was at a rally in Los Angeles the Sunday before the elections and then again the night after.  There were tons more people the night after than at all the ones before.  I guess we all just thought it wasn't going to pass.

Open to all of life's possibilities...

myspace.com/mustangelita

Angie thanx for the picture...I can't believe Jill & Cathy have been so banished from AfterEllen that Trish can't even mention this. Don't think I am obsessed over Jill and/or Cathy like some other girls that visit this website, but this kind of behavior does bother me.  

To sodomy,

It's between God and me.

that's what I was trying to get at before my typo made me look like a doofus 

thanks =]

www.GoVeg.com

is that it's possible to hide gay.  When you think about how gay people are still begin killed just for being gay, then I'd have to say our struggle is just as unjust as that of the black person.  While gays may earn a lot of money, it's often at the expense of being closeted at work.  Even though many large companies today don't discriminate, you can still be discriminated against for being gay - they just hide it as something else.  You know, you're just not as good as your co-worker so we're not going to promote you.  I would never take anything away from the black's perspective of discrimination - yes, it's true, it's happened in the past and it's still on-going.  But, discrimination in any form to any minority is wrong.  I don't have to be black to empathize with their struggle.  I don't have to be black to know that if a vote came up to ban a human right just because of a person's race, I'd vote no.  So, why can't the blacks understand that being discriminated against because of ones sexual orientation is just wrong?

p.s. I did not use the PC term of African American because I know a lot of blacks in America whose heritage is not that of Africa. 

Another difference between black and gay is that black people aren't rejected by their families for being black.

Having said that, I don't think it's a matter of "my suffering is worse than yours" - from either side. The Civil Rights movement serves as a model for the struggle for equality. The comparison is a compliment.

I do disagree with one point - many young homosexuals are fighting for just plain survival. A disproportionate number of homeless kids are GLBT.

Here's something to think about - 10 years ago James Byrd was dragged to death because he was black and Matthew Shepard was beaten and tied to a post because he was gay. Does it really matter which group has it worst? We should all be working together against the attitudes behind discrimination and hate of any minority.

Here's another interesting perspective:

Cathy DeBuono Asks 'Is Gay the New Black?'

I see that statement touted a lot by people trying to make that case that queer folks don't have it so bad, so they don't deserve "special rights". I mean, they make more money than most folks, right?

The myth of gay wealth is based upon old marketing studies that were done for gay magazines and newspapers that wanted to attract advertisers. They were never intended to be statistically reflective of the entire LGBT community, and magazine subscribers as a general class are more well-off then the general populace.

Most surveys that are statistically relevant show that gay men on average earn up to 25% less than their heterosexual male peers, and while lesbian women earn slightly more than straight women [perhaps because there's less "maternity leave" stigma?], lesbian couples have joint incomes significantly less than straight couples. Additionally, LGBT couples spend more money on things like health insurance, because even when their job offers them domestic partnership benefits, they get taxed on those benefits. They also do not enough federal tax benefits afforded to straight married couples, and they have to spend money to obtain protections such as Powers of Attorney or Health Care Authorizations by contract since they can't obtain them by legal marriage. Google "the myth of gay wealth" and you'll find lots of articles on the subject.

Even more than that [although I don't have concrete evidence to support it] I think all LGBT incomes surveys rely on the willingness of the individual being surveyed to admit that they are L/G/B/T. Not everyone is willing to be out, either because of family, cultural or workplace discrimination that they are trying to avoid. Usually, the more financially stable one is, the more likely they are to feel safe enough to come out. The converse is true as well - if you're barely making ends meet, or still living at home with family, you often can't afford to come out lest you get fired or kicked out of your parent's house.

This is especially true in communities of color. And the "black vs. gay" thing continually ignores the fact that there are plenty of queer folks of color who are struggling with discrimination on both fronts. 

No discrimination is acceptable, regardless of who has had it "worse" throughout the course of history. Folks who seek civil rights for one category of people should seek equality for all people. 

at your church why Mormons preach against gay marriage and encourage their members to donate their private funds in support of Prop 8.  To be sure if the Mormons in CA supported the proposition, the Mormons in NY did also.  Are you sure that most of the Mormons you go to church with would have voted no?  I'm not so sure.

Your religion you can change.  Your sexual orientation, you cannot.  It's your choice.

I don't hate you and I agree that no good will come from protesting in front of Mormon churches. Do we want the country to see news reports saying gays are attacking churches, or that they're peacefully protesting? I know the protests have been peaceful, but I did actually see one news report that described video of protests in front of churches as gays attacking churches.

We shouldn't be fighting against "them." We should be fighting for "us."

I like to think most people who voted for Prop 8 did it out of ignorance rather than hate. I live in a county that voted 75% in favor and most of the people I've talked to one-on-one aren't hateful. They just really believe the lies they've been fed. I feel I've made more progress with them by really listening to them and gently guiding them to question their own faulty reasoning.

"Let no man pull you low enough to hate him." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

"Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

"Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

Not because I "hate" individual Mormons, but because it's important for members of the LDS church know about the anger that we experience due to their priests preaching anti-gay sentiments, their personal donations to the DOMA, Prop 8 and related campaigns, the anti-queer sentiments of the church leaders, the tithing they pay to support those leaders and their bigotry, and the church itself organising and supplying the money to those who wish to take our rights away.

The rank hypocrisy of saying it's not the "church's" money when it's their congregations providing it, and their hierarchy organising the collection and distribution of it, galls me no end.

There's nothing new in this. You might find it illuminating reading Sonia Johnson's biography (From Housewife to Heretic) of her experiences with the LDS hierarchy when she campaigned for the Equal Rights Amendment in the early 70s - she was excommunicated for her political views, and nothing else. Maybe it's changed a bit since then, but given this present queer hatred campaign, and that even then, the church was "merely" organising the money, getting people to vote against the ERA and yadda yadda, not so much, it seems.

We need to speak out against the opposition in whatever form they take. That's just the way it is. Some people are going to hide behind a religion. We can try to use a scalpel and go after the institution and not the religion itself, but people are going to be defensive and they're going to try and twist what we do.

Quite simply--you CAN'T be Queer and Mormon--the two do NOT peacefully co-exist.  I was born and raised LDS and in Utah and the church pretty much runs the state government here and there is no room for questioning LDS church authority.  It was announced here in Sunday church services that the church leaders fully expected it's members to give their time and money to Prop 8. I was a member of the church my whole life and was excommunicated (kicked out) two years ago for being gay.  I had many friends in the church who completly turned their back on me when the "gay" rumors started and I am still ignored at the grocery store by people I served with and lived by in the ward (congegration).  There is no tolerage for gay people in the church and there never will be and anyone who believes otherwise is naive.

You simply don't get 100% accord on anything, let alone a subject as controversial as this one. Perhaps Canadians are just slightly better at not letting the majority dictate the rights of a significant minority (although I don't actually think the majority of Canadians are bigots).

A round-up of some anti-gay marriage sentiments was on this blog: http://www.coverfire.com/archives/2005/02/03/gay-marriage-in-canada/. You can google for plenty more. 

thanks for the info, RELvoxballroom.  I'll be there!

"Ayo! I'm tired of using technology...I need you right in front of me."