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The 2009 AfterEllen.com Hot 100: Women of Color30. Jada Pinkett Smith
31. Queen Latifah
32. Parminder Nagra
33. Grace Park
34. Aisha Tyler
Please limit comments on this list to celebrating hot women of color. Discussion of who should be included in the category "woman of color" should take place in this thread. |
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I know that this was
And Laura Sánchez as well
I understand that issues of race and ethnicity can be touchy subjects...but it seems like we're simply saying that these two women are 'of colour' simply because they're both from Spain, and I don't quite get that. It's not so much about how AfterEllen defines it, as I'm assuming that both of these women are in this category because so many women placed them in this category...but I wonder exactly why it is that we (people in general) do that.
/rambly post on random stuff :)
I did not understand that
I did not understand that either. Laura and Penelope are from Spain, no ancesters from other countries (well I bet they have, but their immediate family, as long as I know, are from here as well) so.. why exactly should they count as women of color? If they are, all the italians, french and more should be considered people of color too, just saying.
Jennifer Beals?
she is biracial
void
Well
it's probably b/c they don't look "white" according to American standards......which they don't.
"Come On Then Get These Good Done Debbies"
I noticed that too.
That really made me raise my eyebrow, because where I'm from (haha, I make it sound like I'm from some far away, mystical land--I'm from Canada) calling Penelope Cruz or Laura Sanchez "coloured" or "of colour" would definitely not fly.
I always just assumed that the connotation was the same in Canada and the US, but perhaps I need to rethink that. Or perhaps I'm just overanalysing a blip that somebody (or even many people) just didn't give any thought to.
I'm interested to see other responses to that.
Mmmmh... I think is because
I always thought
I always assumed that the word 'latina' (or 'latino') referred to someone who was from somewhere in Latin America, meaning that Cruz wouldn't qualify (as she's from Spain).
I always thought that people 'mixed it up' as it were b/c Spanish is the predominant language throughout most of Latin America, and so it's as if we just assume that all Spanish speakers are 'people of colour'...
Well Latin America doesn't exist
Geographically speaking. So it wouldn't matter about the Spanish language. Or the Portuguese language.
Latin America applies to people of what is classified as "Latin American" decent. You don't have to be directly from Spain or Portugal or Mexico or Cuba, etc. you just have to have that blood in you.
Therefore, YES, Latin American people are considered people of color...or for the sake of the article Latin American women = women of color
Does that help any?
Well, our entire system of
Well, our entire system of drawing political/national boundaries and naming continents and states or whatever, that's a social construct. So you can argue that no place exists. Latin America does exist because various people use that name. Like, people who study the region choose to refer to the region where they work as "Latin America", that's only one example.
It has nothing to do with 'blood' -- Latin Americans are from the part of the Americas that was colonized by several different European powers, particularly Spain and Portugal, and our culture is a mixture of European, indigenous, and African cultures. That triple influence is what makes us uniquely Latin American.
A ridiculous and dichotomous view of race and color exists in the US. Anyone who's just a little different from the Anglos are automatically considered to be 'of color'....that's the only reason Latin American women are considered "women of color" here.
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Language?
The definition of Latin America that I've been taught is that it's about language. Latin America refers to the parts of America where Latin languages are spoken; i.e. Spanish, Portuguese and French.
Of course non of this applies to Penélope Cruz, Laura Sanchez and Patricia Vico as they are all Spanish. I still don't really understand the definition of person of color, it seems a bit arbitrary to me, but I didn't think Europeans entered into that category.
Major Faux Pas...
Penelope Cruz is NOT a woman of color! She is a Spaniard, and Spaniards are considered White European. Hispanics are women of color. Hispanics being from Mexico, Central and South America, and some island countries i.e. Cuba, Dominican Republic, etc. Hispanics are a COMPLETELY different race than Spaniards. I've always been annoyed by this, people thinking Spanish are Hispanic, or visa versa. Now people may argue about this; especially Hispanics/Latinos, that Hispanic is an ethnicity and not a race. Well, in the U.S. we do consider Hispanics a race, and Penelope Cruz does not fall into that category.
Latin America does too exist.
Latin Americanists -- that is, people who study the region -- define Latin America as South America, Central America, and all of the Caribbean (even the islands where languages other than Spanish are spoken).
Latina/o typically is used to describe a person of Latin American descent in the US. People who live in Latin American countries don't generally identify themsevles 'regionally' -- that is, they don't call themsevles Latin American, they call themselves Peruvian or Nicarguan or Dominican, or whatever. If they do identify with a region, they call themselves American.
And you're right -- Cruz doesn't qualify as Latina. She's Spanish/European.
Gotcha
exactly...
thank you very much!
The boat of life is rocking And you may stumble too, So while you talk about me...someone else is judging you.
Bob Marley - Judge not
Spanish are latinos too...
A Spanish or Italian girl would kick you in the ass if you tell them they're not latinas. lol.
Latin America is indeed most of south and central america (that's the part of america where the languaje has latin roots).
But "Latino" doesn't mean "a person from latin america". It's just a person from a country with latin roots languaje (spanish, italian, etc). That's why someone from, for example Spain, Italy, Mexico or Argentina, is latina/o.
Going back to the main discussion, Penelope is Latina, but I don't think of her a woman of colour.
The nitty gritty...
I'm a Sociology major, so I'm just gonna give it to you quick and dirty but google/wikipedia's pretty good at breaking it all down for ya. :-)
The term 'People of color' (or in this case, women), particularly in the mozaic blanket of the United States, basically just refers to people who are not white and who belong in a racial/ethnic minority group.
Yes, you can argue about the injustices of the world, or complain about how race is a social construct with no biological foundation or whatever makes you feel better as an evolved individual but at the end of the day, there's your answer, cut and dry. Therefore, Penelope Cruz is, in fact, a WOC because she is Hispanic. That is the fine art of inclusiveness.
"Only LOVE can save the world" Keep the Light shining!
www.twitter.com/NoTORIousTori
ehm.
ehm.
Since when being "European" makes you be a part of 'racial/ ethnic minority group".
Shall we be little less US-centered here, por favor? You obviously know a lot about the subject BUT I think you've just made the same (wrong) conclusion that many Americans seems to be making, i.e.: 'Spanish' = 'Latin American'.
Correct should be:
'Spanish people' = 'People from Spain'
'South American or Mexican people speaking Spanish' are in fact = 'South Americans', resp. 'Mexicans'
And similarly being 'Hispanic' doesn't mean that you are automatically Woman of Colour.
Now don't get me wrong, Spain (and the rest of the Europe) is just as colourful when it comes to minorities linving in here but it is still a European country that is mainly (and very boringly I might ad) populated for centuries by white people.
Unless Penelope Cruz and Laura Sanchez have some iminent non-white-european ancesters (which I believe they dodn't) I can't see how she can qualify as Woman of Colour.
Saying that - I hope Penelope and Laura don't take our discussion personally. I am happy for them to make any list! But there could be two more women out there on the list who trully are Women in Colour.
In America
we have a one-drop rule, and you look at those two and tell they have more than just one drop.......by definition not white. Like the poster above you said POC means non-white, and in America this is just the way it is.
"Come On Then Get These Good Done Debbies"
A Portuguese point of view
I'm Portuguese and so are my ancestors. Here in Europe both Spaniards and Portuguese are considered Southern Europeans. We consider ourselves Latinos because our native languages derive from Latin (so does French, Italian and Romanian). That is the reason why Latin America is named like that: They speak Latin derived languages.
About the colour issue, I don't consider myself a woman of colour. In the winter my skin gets quite white as the spring and summer tan fades. Our skin never gets as white as the northern Europeans because we get a lot of sunny days through out the year. But, given this ‘People of Colour’ standard is from the United States, I assure you all that most of us, from the Iberian Peninsula, are whiter than many of your Anglo-Saxon’s that live in sunny states.
Anyway, this should be a non-issue, but I’m glad it generated this debate. Coloured or no Coloured, I don't really care.
I'm trying to understand where
you are coming from, i'm not gonna lie and say I do understand fully b/c I don't.
In America Lations which you said you consider yourself would fall in the POC category. When I lived in Europe people from Southern Spain to me looked like a POC. Considering the history of Spain with the Moors especially I can understand why they look like they have a "built in tan."
As far as the skin thing in America it goes deeper than just the color of your skin. I had family that could pass for white, and could turn pale during the winter as well. They were still a poc though. Skin color or colour does play a big part of it, but who's in your family tree also has alot to do with it as well. I think it's an American thing personally.
I say acknowledge that we all come in diff. colors, shapes, sizes, and just celebrate it. If we were all the same the world would be a boring place.
"Come On Then Get These Good Done Debbies"
Unfortunately...
Like, I said, it's not pretty...and they're not "my" conclusions, I just gave you the simpliest explanation without going into a diatribe. But, now here's the diatribe:
Because Afterellen is a website based in the United States, and because there is a global issue with what sets the standard of beauty, race and ethnicity is an issue when it comes down to "Most Beautiful" lists. First of all, whether we like it or not, everyone who is human is in an Ethnic group. What makes one minority has to do with your global location, your ancestory, and who has the political/social power in your country (you can have the population, but if you haven't a voice in state affairs of your country, more than likely, you're a minority...think Rowanda or Iraq).
There's a difference between race, ethnicity, and nationality. For instance, American is my nationality. But when you look at me, the 1st thing you think isn't "oh, look, there's an American!" Nope, usually, when you look at me, your brain pings, "Hey, there's a black girl" whether you're conscious about it or not. My skincolor usually puts me in some racial category. In America, it's messy b/c everyone's not so Black/White/Red/Yellow/whatever anymore. But race, positive or negative is still a huge issue (if it weren't, there would've been no worldwide celebration of Obama being the 1st Black President of the United States). Then there's ethnicity. What makes you, you. Because my ancestors were slaves and clear records were not kept (and then I was adopted and have no knowledge of my paternal lineage), I do know I am of African descent, but beyond that, I'm pretty clueless. Whereas many people, particularly of European descent, can say, "well, I'm 1/4 Dutch, a bit Irish, a little Spanish, but mostly German."
Globally, I have the idea that most people see you for your nationality and/or your ethnicity. European is a pretty broad stroke but because Spain and Portugal has been a part of Europe...since they've been Spain and Portugal, then they are considered by Europeans as European. However, I'm pretty sure the target words there are European and Non-European descent. Because no matter where you are in the entire world, there's always a collective consciousness of "us" and "them" So, if a Sudanese immigrant showed up in your town, even if he lived in your town for 50 years...for 3 generations, he, nor his children, would probably never be considered [by others as] European, but, in fact, Non-European. I'm not even going to get into the whole colonization and colonialization deal b/c frankly, it's irrelevant to the discussion.
Here in America, there's White and Non-White (we ALL know that the U.S. is a very racially charged nation. Slavery lasted for 400 yrs and ended, in ALL forms and intend, more or less than 100 yrs ago). In the 60s/70s, someone coined the term "people of color"...b/c it sounded more inclusive. Something with/of something sounds so much better than a Non-something. To cut this short, (b/c I already spend enough time/effort on race/ethnicity in general, and I'd actually rather be talking about/watching Guiding Light lol) Hispanic people (and look at the word 1st...it gives you a hint) are labeled as such b/c a)their ethnicity is of Spanish origin and/or b)their cultural and language background. Here's the wikipedia article. Not only that, she's been nominated for several ALMA (American Latino Media Arts) awards. So, there must be something to it.
Being Hispanic does in fact qualify you as a WOC because people of color is synonymous with the term Non-White. So, basically, this is the Hot List of the Non-White Women (doesn't sound so pretty anymore does it?). It is included because of the global exclusion. I'm not even gonna go into how the "European" ideals of beauty are still applied when constructing this list. But it is what it is b/c the world works how it does. Since I'm not naive enough to believe I can change it, I'll do everything I can to educate people about it. :-)
Anyways, the funny thing is, as progressive as we like to believe we are, we can argue whatever we want until we're blue in the face (and I'm definitely not arguing, I'm just delivering you the "facts" as they've been taught to me my entire life) of who is what but a) the true determiner of where one falls in any and all of these categories is oneself and b) apparently, whether we like it or not, there is a concensus....because they made the list.
I really hope that cleared things up for you and didn't produce more questions! :-)
"Only LOVE can save the world" Keep the Light shining!
www.twitter.com/NoTORIousTori
FROM ARGENTINA
as a "latina" i think i have certain right to speak, so that's what i'm gonna do.
i think the idea of saying "if you're latina/o you're of portuguese, spanish or any latin descendent, and that makes you a WOC because (for example) spanish people (specially in the south) have a history with moors and that makes them non white", is wrong. i think latinoamerica is a REALLY complicated region in a demographic perspective.
i'll put myself as an example. i'm a quarter german, italian (sicilia), spanish (gallega) and french (vasco-francesa). it sounds like a big mess but that's what happens with most of the people here in argentina whose grandparents came in the inmigration wave of 1890-1920 aproximately.
then, we have in the latest decades, a huge number of inmigrants from peru, bolivia, uruguay, paraguay, corea and china.
so i think the problem with you north-americans (in this case people from the USA) is that you're missing like 200 years of inmigration history. yes, spanish people were the first ones to came, but in argentina they were like 200 living in buenos aires, then they're thousands of people from europe that came because of the world wars.
so, no. i don't think it's ok to say LATINOS are of color. not because i think is something wrong with that, but because it's just IGNORANT. and i think that the fact that it is a northamerican site doesn't give certain people the right to set standards that are just wrong.
but frankly i'm just glad to see laura sanchez in any list
Nothing but respect.
First of all, I'll quote myself...in the next to last sentence in my post, I stated: "the true determiner of where one falls in any and all of these categories is oneself" It's not my place to categorize you, your ethnicity, your cultural viewpoint. My ex had a med school classmate who was Nigerian and considered herself Asian. We all know what she looked like and where she came from, but it's not my business to tell her she's wrong.
Second of all, I'm one semester from a degree in Sociology with an emphasis in Social Equality. so telling me I'm incorrect (as opposed to "wrong" which follows different stipulations) is basically telling me I've wasted the last 3 1/2 years of my life and to set a lighter to my degree immediately upon receiving it. Lol :-) That's the wonderful/frustrating thing about race/ethnicity; It's very very subjective. You can line up acres of Hispanic/Chicano/Latina/o people who don't consider themselves POC (and I am well aware of the racial/skin color/socioeconomic issues of some South American countries) and I can line up acres of the same who do. What will we accomplish? Not too much. I know there are some people who believe being considered "of color" is disrespectful. My ex, who's Black, solely considered herself "American". She says b/c her family has been here for generations longer than most other's she can distinguish herself as such and shouldn't be forced to mark otherwise in some box. Furthermore, there's a recognition of history that makes us what we are, where we are, and how we got there. It also opens the doors to prejudices, stereotypes, discrimination, and all sort of inequality. The fact that we need boxes is saddening, but since the ideals of the popular have never represented the faces of the majority, what other (realistic) choices do we really have?
Categorically speaking, if you're presented with a form that makes you mark boxes for your race and/or ethnicity and you mark anything other than "White" or "European", you'll be considered "of color". It specifically has little to do with your skin tone as it does the diversity of your genetic make-up and your cultural practices. I know the U.S.A isn't the only place in the world who "set such standards". I think it's b/c we are the US that we're probably the most visibly recognized in doing so.
Like I've said before, it's not pretty, it's not even right...but it is what it is. The only person who can really determine if Laura Sanchez and Penelope Cruz are WOC are Laura Sanchez and Penelope Cruz and if they say they are, then they are.
"Only LOVE can save the world" Keep the Light shining!
www.twitter.com/NoTORIousTori
I sincerely doubt Penélope
I sincerely doubt Penélope Cruz or Laura Sánchez would consider themselves women of colour, because in Spain women of colour is the "politically correct" equivalent to black. The US distinction (I won't go into why I try to avoid the term "American", since America to me includes the North and the South, the US is no more "American" than Argentina or Mexico, but thats a case for Linguistics) has nothing to do with European perspective. In Europe saying that a non-white woman is a WOC is like saying that you're not Caucasian if you're not blonde, it's pretty surreal. I understand you're a Sociology major, but you happen to be a Sociology major in the US. You actually could be incorrect, if opposed to a European Sociology major. As you said, it's all pretty subjective, but I happen to be pretty shocked, since I find the extreme US "completely white" vs. "a single drop of colour" distinction amazing. Penélope Cruz probably has more "white" blood in her veins than many Northamericans. I'd love to see someone tell my London based Indian friends that they're WOC. That would be quite something.
Also, I thought "Woman of colour" was considered insulting to quite a few Afro-americans. I always wondered what colour they were talking about.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrelled shotguns. Terry Pratchett.
When in Rome...
I can't tell you, with conviction, how everyone defines themselves (and specifically others) outside of the U.S. The States is my social location. The States is Afterellen's social location. I answered the question according to what I know pertaining to these specifications. I'm not here to ruffle any feathers or tell you how you should categorize yourself or others, but why certain people have been categorized as such. I'm just stating how it is in the U.S. I've already extensively covered all of this and quite frankly, it seemed a trap question to begin with. I don't think the questions was, "Oh, that's interesting, I wonder why this is like this?" but more so like, "Wtf! I don't agree with this! Why is this like this?" One seeks understanding and asks for an answer, the other seeks to vent/disagreee and already has the answer in their head. For the latter, I refuse to bang my head against the wall trying to explain. Had Afterellen been based out of any other continent, the list would be different in every location. Like I said, I don't make the rules. I don't decide things are a certain way. I'm just trying to explain why it is that certain way here. That also doesn't mean that I agree with or condone it.
By the way, here in the United States, the term Woman of Color is NOT a negative connotation and is usually not used to evoke external nor internalized racism. :-)
"Only LOVE can save the world" Keep the Light shining!
www.twitter.com/NoTORIousTori
Kudos
to your post, and maybe if the list was called Hot-List of Non-White women there would be less questions about why is so and so on the list. Also like you said the first thing people notice is your race, it's either oh he's black or she's white, or she's hispanic, or he's asian, et, etc. We don't live in a world where people don't see color.
"Come On Then Get These Good Done Debbies"
I agree with you
I totally agree with you. Not to say I agree with how they rank people, but I'm saying I'm agreeing with your blog.
Race is something that for some unknown reason people jump on. Because of that emotional reaction they don't think of it in simple terms.
Technically no one in America is "white" anymore. America is the only country that has every race walking around in it. From one side of the Atlantic to the other. Eventually America will not have "race" issues because we will all be of one race. Find me a "true blood" in any race and I will be impressed.
Saying that - isn't it just possible that each of these spanish or italian women possibly have a little "color" in their blood?(excuse the term - just using the one everyone is arguing over) Even my family line has black from over a 100 years ago. Are we so set on them being just "spanish" or "just italian". Isn't it possible they are half black half spanish. Isn't Jennifer Beals in fact half black half white.
OPEN YOUR MINDS PEOPLE. The thing that holds so many people back in life is they close their minds to other possibilities.
There will one day only be 1 race... there will be no more black white issues. Oh dear what will people have to bitch about then? lol
I'm still confused
human error?
Then there must be some confusion in the voters for not researching their favorite celebs' background before putting them in WOC category.
also 'spanish-speaking-white-looking-people', in my opinion, consider themselves 'color' if they are mix from the natives south americans and ancestor of spain. like megan fox who is native american and 'color'. but people wont consider themselves 'color' if they are just from spain and speak spanish. theres what you think of yourselves and theres people's misconception.
Your Mind
Spain=European=White
Meh
I just assumed it's the usual level of US ignorance where "non-WASP" must equal "PoC".
Or, alternatively, that people assumed that because someone has a Spanish name, they must be from a Latin American country. Of course, you get plenty of Latin Americans will assert that because they are 100% "Spanish" or "Portuguese" (fewer of the latter, because Brazil is so mixed), they are not PoCs either. And then, you also get plenty who consider themselves 100% "Spanish", and yet who do consider themselves PoCs, because that is how they are treated in the US.
oh, i just saw Aisha Tyler
oh, i just saw Aisha Tyler on TV today! (i think) i don't watch ghost whisperer but i saw a few mins and was like.. is that Charlie from FRIENDS? wasn't certain. now i can look it up! Of this list I voted Parminder N and Rose R and possibly Jennifer B, can't remember..
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Congrats
Congrats to Jessica Leccia and all the other newcomers to this list. You all are fantastic and join the ranks of these other veterans.
“We have to do with the past only as we can make it useful to the present and to the future”Megan Fox
So funny...
According to her Wikipedia entry
Thats wackypedia xD.
Thats wackypedia xD.
Damn that Park girl is hawt! :D
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Let it Rock,Let it roll
Good God!
Grace Park.
*ahem*
Yea.
great but...
Wtf are Penelope Cruz and Laura Sanchez doing here? haha honestly I just don't get the whole "color" thing...and no they're not really "latinas", and even if they were. Ok I have a doubt...If you are from Mexico (a latina) but you are blonde, white, and with blue eyes you still count as a women of color? even if you don't look like a typical "latina"? don't get me wrong I'm not trying to make a big deal of this but I just don't get it and I know if they are here is because people voted for them but hmm that just get me to the WTF again lol.
I just read about Megan Fox, I was wondering too. Oh and I think Jessica Alba don't consider herself "a latina" and she's still in the list :) ironic.
anyway...really hot-diverse-colorful top 100 :P
The boat of life is rocking And you may stumble too, So while you talk about me...someone else is judging you.
Bob Marley - Judge not
This may help you understand...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color
:-)
"Only LOVE can save the world" Keep the Light shining!
www.twitter.com/NoTORIousTori
thank you
for responding :) it's just that sometimes people forget that there are woman here from around the world that are not used to some "terms" that might have a different meaning or use in their countries. I still wouldn't call them "woman of color" anyway.
Thanks :)
The boat of life is rocking And you may stumble too, So while you talk about me...someone else is judging you.
Bob Marley - Judge not
Jessica Alba considers
Jada Pinkett Smith
*spits out drink* WHAT?!
i just realized this now. the mighty beysus DID NOT make the hot 100?! what is wrong with the world? did no one watch obsessed? that was like the best.movie.ever!...j/k
but yay for aisha tyler. i flove her <3
Hispanic or Latin American question
I don't consider Penelope Cruz or Laura Sanchez Hispanic or Latin American because they are purely European and also White. Hispanic to me is someone who is related ethnically to the Native American peoples of Mesoamerican people including from North America (Mexico), Central, or South America. I don't think that just because you speak Spanish, makes you a person of color.
Jordana Brewster's mother was Brazillian (which is very ethnically diverse, made of of European, South American Natives, and African groups) and I would therefore consider her a person of color. Katrina Lombard is not Hispanic but her mother was descended from the Lakota Souix tribe so she is a person of color. Person of color is someone who is fully or partially NOT White (of European descent.) Salma Hayek is Mexican but her father is Middle Eastern. Sarah Shahi was born in the US but her mom is of Spanish decent while her father was Iranian. I consider both of these people persons of color because they aren't purely of European descent.
agree